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Topic: attempt to create trouble has failed !

Posted on: 23rd Jun 2010 7:39 PM    Quote and Reply


What I'm trying to highlight is tolerance differences between manufacturers. In fact, even within the same range, what you get may not even be perfect. Have you seen out of alignment rotor bolts on hub?



Quote:
"Formerly posted by thewhitebunny12: Meowfifa,
never heard that before, new hub + old cogset ? 2nd hand cog-set ? Totally damaged cogset ? Try on other hubs got play ?

"

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Posted on: 23rd Jun 2010 11:22 PM    Quote and Reply


Pleasant surprise. I actually threw a few curve balls and made some false statements when discussion of component was veered towards cassettes. Nobody has pointed it out except the link to the Deore cassette about spiders. Maybe everyone else reading are too polite to point it out. Or not enough people who wrenched sufficiently with all the entire series of Shimano cassettes has read this yet.

Yup Deore has no spiders but the point to get someone to post a pic or link is to show how many point of supports are holding up those cogs. Its 6 vs 5 in the XT that uses an integrated spider. So what is the point?
Well the real question is which is stronger in terms of holding up and minimizing bent tooths when under strain of high torque esp when it starts to cross-chain with the front. Something that is becoming more common with the trend bucking towards just having 1 or 2 rings up front and reliance on those 2 chain setups to rely more on the middle ring to move across the entire range in the rear.

The other false statement is to state that the lower series cassette are also a 1 piece cluster for the 6 biggest cogs.
False: Individual cogs are pinned together with plastic spacer in between. However these are pinned tight and if lock ring is tightened properly and lightly greased, the chances of it cutting the freebody underneath is still slim enough not to be of concern.

Also false is that XT do not have a plastic spacer after the 6 cog cluster.


A Deore cassette with a pinned cluster separated by plastic spacers




Deore on bottom left-clearly showing the plastic spacer after the cluster
XT on bottom right- showing that the carriers extends out to take the space of a spacer
But both have a similar 3rd smallest cog (the piece with the biggest hole drilled into it)


But the common notching found on many freehub body is due to the stand alone 3rd smallest cog common thruout the series of cassettes, whether there is a spacer or not.



I was hoping somebody would post up and wanted to point those difference from the pics , but looks like will have to do it myself.


5 point support in the XT and lighter (less material) leads to tooths more easily bent vs the 6 point support of the although heavier Deore cassette. So something more expensive is argued as better because of weight, then I have nothing to argue. But for cassettes that gone thru the similar mileage on 2 front ring setups, the XT are the ones that inevitably gets bent and got changed, rather than the usual reason of becoming shark toothed. On the contrary my Deores are changed because the tooths are worn and they last a much longer time, the cogs have tooth that all stayed relatively true till end of service life.


See pic below of XT cassette that just got changed (yes I am using both on different bikes, sometimes weight is the deciding factor, depending on which bike I use)

Note gap between 2nd - 3rd largest cog and the gap between the 3rd to the 4th. Bent! and this occurs in 5 different spots over the cassette over a period of ~600km


5 vs 6 points of support on the deroe (left) and XT (right)


The bent tooths in the few largest cogs are the usual culprit in skips and jumps during shifts. So performance of a higher end more expensive actually interferes more with the riding, is that better value for money or proves that more expensive is better?

But budget weight weenies, all is not lost. Though still heavier but replacing the lock ring from some discarded XT and plug that onto your lower end Deore, ~ 25 gm saving with absolutely no funcitonal compromise.




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Posted on: 24th Jun 2010 2:06 AM    Quote and Reply


ister_bunny,
not really. Don't really understand the mentality of others, perhaps because bunnies don't need to run around in packs like others.

anvil,
yup, mostly true. Smallest 3 cog notching freehub body can't really be avoided.

Deore grade cog-set is 6 individual steel cogs spaced with plastic spacers. Wear and tear on these are much more significant given the plastic components. The 3-pin retention does come loose over time from my experience. Notching occurs along the freehub body in-line with where the individual cogs line up. Don't have an old pic, but i can confirm that, just have to get my old freehub back form a friend. Hub can still be used and cogs won't come loose either. It's just those people who feel things should be perfect won't enjoy it much, i know i don't (even though i use them as well, solely because of cash constrain)

XT cog-set spacers ain't plastic though, it's some form of metal. Dropping it on the floor in the past has yielded a sound similar to dropping a coin, trust me, bunnies have good ears.

AL is so obviously more prone to bent teeth than Stainless Steel, don't need a rocket scientist to figure it out. Question is, has the cog-set been pushed outside of it's intended purpose ? Wheelie in 42/34 is possible, but should it be done ?

Something universal >
In the world at large, everyone wants to expand the least effort and reap the greatest rewards. Highest power to weight ratio will win, no argument there.
R&D coupled with more durable materials yield better components. In the cycling world, that means lighter components solely because the rider is the engine, when comes to vehicles which use fuel, it really does come down to engine capacity if weight is kept the same. Lighter components not only mean faster acceleration, but also better handling as the rider to bike weight ratio is increased, rider will find it easier to change direction and weigh / un-weigh certain areas of the bike to overcome obstacles. This last bit, only IMO, not everyone might agree.

Curious to know, how much is an after-market AL lock-ring around here ?

No offense taken, i'm not schooled in marketing. Be quite happy to learn more about it over beer though.

Meowfifa,
never heard of out of line rotor bolts either, sounds scary though. i believe if the component has tolerance out-of-wack, it should be a QC problem and any manufacturer would fix it.

danjakrod,
i don't think sponsored racers cannot choose what components they want to run on their bike, given that they be from the same factory.

No offense taken, although it might come as a surprise that i do ride quite a bit. More mileage isn't superior quality, perhaps should look at price of sticky tyres VS their more durable counterparts before making a comparison. Also, compare the performance gain and post here.


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Posted on: 24th Jun 2010 10:24 AM    Quote and Reply


Nice catch! I would be really scared shitless if Shim decide to use a plastic spider

Never a fan of relying on just sticky rubber alone both in terms of functionality and their lack of durability. Preference is to run larger tires and modulate pressure for the traction. Actually I just wrote something a few days back...Hard to find nice and relatively light non folding tires and something that last... Found it but now they discontinued and prompted me to find a new combo for my liking...read all about it here.

http://bikes-bikes-bikes.blogspot.com/2010/06/tires-time.html


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Posted on: 20th Feb 2011 12:10 PM    Quote and Reply


As promised,

Quote:
"Formerly posted by thewhitebunny12:

Actually, the subject of this here post was -
Don't expect XT components at SLX pricing.
Not about how good my service is, how many times i re-post my ad, wether stoodents get discount, how generous other people are, blah, blah and blah

point proven, i'm off. Will update pricing again at a much later date. Anyone wanting to sell me a STi for TS price can email me."


Shimano XT pricing here >
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/SearchResults.aspx?Search=shimano+xt
Shimano SLX pricing here >
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/SearchResults.aspx?Search=shimano+slx

In the year 2011,
comparing cranksets, hydro brakes, cog-sets, front / rear mesh and hubs -
XT coponents still cost more, still lighter more and still superior. Will update again in a year's time.


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