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Topic: Has anyone bring any bikeshop to small claim tribunal before?

Posted on: 6th Jan 2011 12:35 PM    Quote and Reply


Quote:
"Formerly posted by cooperoh:

Dear Tazzy,

Before I continue to answer your questions. Have you seem the photos of the damage? And have you ever owned a top of the range carbon frame before?
Why these question is because I am trying to be very objective here, which I did to KH Cycle too.
I will go step by step with you. Please bear with me.

I believe you are aware of the carbon fibre characteristic right? So I do not need to explain further.
You mentioned that you are a rider, so I believe you have been involved in bike crashes before and suffered damage to your frame. Even stone chip, right?

So to your question on 'Could it have been chipped on the road?'
Let's be very very objective here, ok? No 'who knows, act of God, bla bla bla'
Seen the CSI show, think like them.

Do you think a stone chip could have caused a crack on a top of the line carbon frame?
And the stone is so accurate that it can caused a centric pinpoint impact thus crack a carbon material that was used on cars and planes. 

Be very clear, study the first photo. Then look at the 3rd photo on what the damage is. (Which I have pleaded with KH Cycle to study and investigate it, which I think they choose to ignore)

Think again. Which direction does the wheel spins? Away from the crack right? 

And there are no scratches, kinks, marks on any parts of the frame at all. Very shiny except abrasion on the bottom of the BB just what the BB hole is.

I believe I have answered your questions. I have only rode the bike 3 times when the frame was in my possession.


The photos:

http://img228.imageshack.us/i/2ndimpactpt.jpg/

http://img811.imageshack.us/i/dscn2905r.jpg/

http://img691.imageshack.us/i/dscn2988c.jpg/


Seriously, what is the difference between riding and racing in term of biking? This is road race, not MTBing."


Hi Cooperoh, I have been riding over 20 years and have had frames ranging from steel, alu, mixed alu/carbon and full carbons. I am back to steel now for a reason. If you are going to ask me if I was competitive, answer is yes, and my bikes were well used by the time I got on to the next one. Only the steel frames survived well.

I have had experience with even the 1st gen carbon and a number of brands up to of couple years ago when I decided to move back to steel. My worst experience was when a highly branded carbon frame purchased from a well known shop in central Singapore cracked and I was refused warranty though it was well known that that particular model had problems. I was told to top up for a replacement frame from a different brand. LLST as I have had the frame a few months and raced it as well.  

I have seen your photos and my point is that it would be highly improbable that the damage was not noticed when the bike left the builder. If you had used the bike 3 weeks and maybe even raced the bike, I don't think you would expect the LBS to warranty the bike with that damage. Come on, if you have built and owned several high end bike, I am sure you are familiar to check the bike before leaving the shop. Relagsingh has a point there and I would support him.

The rear wheel spins away from the frame but your front wheel spins towards the frame and could kick up pebbles to the point for your speedkeg. The type of pin point damage could also occur if the frame came in contact with the pavement or an obstacle of height, the crank would not prevent that. If I am the retailer, I would be suspicious as well.

Anyway, that is only my point of view and am not here to try and discredit you. I have had my fair share of disappointing warranty issues with LBS as well and it is good that you shared your experience. I hope you have better luck shopping for a new frame. Go steel!

My last post.

Cheers.  

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Posted on: 7th Jan 2011 10:57 PM    Quote and Reply


Quote:
"Formerly posted by relagsingh: My POV...
1) Onus is on you to do a thorough check on the frame before leaving the shop. If u're an experienced high-end carbon frame buyer (but i dunno whether u 1st time or expert), u'll know what to check for. Not mentioning that u're just checking a frame. not a whole bike. Once the frame leave the shop's doors, god knows what happened to it.

2) I think the bike builders bear some responsibility too. who knows they could be the ones who caused the damage. they swore they didnt see anything during the bike building, they words against everyone else's.

3) 3 weeks is a long time. Me as a bike shop owner of course will think twice before heeding to your requests. yes maybe there is a huge comm cock up between u, them and SCOTT. but the shop also got a business to run and they have day to day operations to attend to. to be honest, i think they are also not really wrong to give a hoot to your misfortune(3 weeks bro. 3, not 1 or 2). but still, they are technically wrong for not doing so. about the part where u're not informed abt the offer to repair and warranty extension, i think it also boils down to the level of expertise available to do the repair, hence the omission of any info passed down to you.

4) From my knowledge, KH has always been just a supplier and only recently they have their own bike shop providing cust sales and serv. i've been to that shop before and from one look i can see that they are severly undermanned (Seems like there's only 1 mechanic!)for a big shop. So far I think yr case is the most prominent for SCOTT frames in sg. I've never heard of anything major that happened to their products here before. Maybe that's why they could be in a fix while handling your case. Not taking sides here. and like i mentioned, technically they are still wrong for withholding info from you. be it intentional or not.

5) Good for you to share your experience. But i still think u can share the jizz(correct spelling?) of it by leaving out the name of the shop and the brand of frame. why i say that? the damage IMO is definitely due to handling. definitely not a manufacturer defect cuz that damage surely won't pass QC. So, it's not anyone's fault for that defect. Like what i mentioned in pt 2, if you wana mention the brand and shop's name, it's fair if you tell us who are the builders. i mean come'on... when u send in the frame to them? definitely only within a few days or hours after u left KH right? if the damage passed your eyes i really can't fathom how it can pass through some mechanics. unless u have some vested interest with them still? are u afraid that by 'shopping' them u'll lose good service with them?


disclaimer: all above is genuinely my POV. it's good sharing yr misfortune with us in order to protect clueless buyers but since this is a forum, there should be some balance. like some already mentioned, we've only heard from you. Let this be a learning experience for all. just to stress that i'm not for or against anyone. I may have missed out some details but i'm no CSI. Genuinely generalised comments. Cheers!

btw just to confirm; did u get full compensation?"


Hi relagsingh,

You might have misunderstood my situation.

The frame was bought at KH Cycle and assembled at KH Cycle. The bike builder I went to was to evaluate the damage. I did not leave the bike with him for him to dismantle it.
The bike builder, in my own opinion, is more creditble and experience in his evaluate on the assessing the damage than all of you whom are just viewing photos I have posted. This guys has years of experience in bike building and therefore his judgement is more unbiased and fair. Seriously, sometimes when you look at someone for the first time, you will know whether you are looking at an honest man. This guy is an honest man. Not because he evaluated in my favor but when he first saw my frame, I asked him for his 1st thought. And bingo, true enough, he saw it cannot happened during riding. And his evaluation is very sharp, in fact it never occured to me the possibility of transportation damage when the frame is in the box. Quoting from the report:


A slight chipped/breakage(see Fig.A, Fig.B and Fig.C) is observed at protrusion on underside of above frameset. Location of defect is under and rear of bottom bracket shell-Fig. D.


There can be 3 probable causes to above damage :-


1. Frame may have been dropped into box during packing. Protrusion is at lowest point of             


    frameset. It took full impact of the fall/dropping, thus it broke/chipped.


2. Box(with frameset inside) may have been dropped during transporting/moving. 


    Abrasion mark is observed, also on underside of frame, directly under bottom bracket, in front of damaged area(see Fig.D).  This is synonymous with inadequate or improper padding at contact areas during packaging.


3. Frame may have been dropped during assembly or set-up process, before crankset or wheelset is fitted on.          


Note : Possibility of damage on a fully assembled bike is remote. Crankset/chainrings protects bottom bracket area from such probability.



Therefore, I do appreciate all your feedback whether +ve or -ve. The case was already decided by the SCT Referee who passed an order. As a 3rd party who heard both side's story, he is convinced the damage did not occured during my possession rather I happened BEBFORE i collected the bike.

On naming the KH Cycle and SCOTT, I learnt my lession because before I went to KH Cycle, I did a search at TOGOPART and nothing -ve appeared thus I thought they were safe since they carried big names and is big. But who knows it could happened to me. Now with my posting, most agreed with me, thus this will serve as an warning to all.

Personally if I saw someone approaching a potential danger, I would warn them. If they chose to ignore me so be it. But I would do so because I do not want anyone else to go through what I have gone through. I just cannot do nothing and see that someone get burnt when I can do something, even a word of warning, like what I am doing.
Well, everyone of you who read my post might think I am a crook out to cheat the bike shop and tarnish the SCOTT brand. I could be sick in the head, who knows.
So I will leave it to you to decide for yourself. I have sounded the alarm, it is up to you to decide for yourself. There is such thing called free will and free speech. 
I have followed Togoparts' motto.
LEARN what I have went through, SHARE my experience to all, I will never ever RIDE any bike sold by KH Cycle.

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Posted on: 7th Jan 2011 11:28 PM    Quote and Reply


Quote:
"Formerly posted by tazzy_72:
Quote:
"Formerly posted by cooperoh:

Dear Tazzy,

Before I continue to answer your questions. Have you seem the photos of the damage? And have you ever owned a top of the range carbon frame before?
Why these question is because I am trying to be very objective here, which I did to KH Cycle too.
I will go step by step with you. Please bear with me.

I believe you are aware of the carbon fibre characteristic right? So I do not need to explain further.
You mentioned that you are a rider, so I believe you have been involved in bike crashes before and suffered damage to your frame. Even stone chip, right?

So to your question on 'Could it have been chipped on the road?'
Let's be very very objective here, ok? No 'who knows, act of God, bla bla bla'
Seen the CSI show, think like them.

Do you think a stone chip could have caused a crack on a top of the line carbon frame?
And the stone is so accurate that it can caused a centric pinpoint impact thus crack a carbon material that was used on cars and planes. 

Be very clear, study the first photo. Then look at the 3rd photo on what the damage is. (Which I have pleaded with KH Cycle to study and investigate it, which I think they choose to ignore)

Think again. Which direction does the wheel spins? Away from the crack right? 

And there are no scratches, kinks, marks on any parts of the frame at all. Very shiny except abrasion on the bottom of the BB just what the BB hole is.

I believe I have answered your questions. I have only rode the bike 3 times when the frame was in my possession.


The photos:

http://img228.imageshack.us/i/2ndimpactpt.jpg/

http://img811.imageshack.us/i/dscn2905r.jpg/

http://img691.imageshack.us/i/dscn2988c.jpg/


Seriously, what is the difference between riding and racing in term of biking? This is road race, not MTBing."


Hi Cooperoh, I have been riding over 20 years and have had frames ranging from steel, alu, mixed alu/carbon and full carbons. I am back to steel now for a reason. If you are going to ask me if I was competitive, answer is yes, and my bikes were well used by the time I got on to the next one. Only the steel frames survived well.

I have had experience with even the 1st gen carbon and a number of brands up to of couple years ago when I decided to move back to steel. My worst experience was when a highly branded carbon frame purchased from a well known shop in central Singapore cracked and I was refused warranty though it was well known that that particular model had problems. I was told to top up for a replacement frame from a different brand. LLST as I have had the frame a few months and raced it as well.  

I have seen your photos and my point is that it would be highly improbable that the damage was not noticed when the bike left the builder. If you had used the bike 3 weeks and maybe even raced the bike, I don't think you would expect the LBS to warranty the bike with that damage. Come on, if you have built and owned several high end bike, I am sure you are familiar to check the bike before leaving the shop. Relagsingh has a point there and I would support him.

The rear wheel spins away from the frame but your front wheel spins towards the frame and could kick up pebbles to the point for your speedkeg. The type of pin point damage could also occur if the frame came in contact with the pavement or an obstacle of height, the crank would not prevent that. If I am the retailer, I would be suspicious as well.

Anyway, that is only my point of view and am not here to try and discredit you. I have had my fair share of disappointing warranty issues with LBS as well and it is good that you shared your experience. I hope you have better luck shopping for a new frame. Go steel!

My last post.

Cheers.  
"


I hope this will not be your last post because you will not be able to defend yourself now because I am disappointed in you for not being objective.
You are just speculating. I would not blame you because whatsoever happened to me has nothing to do with you and you can just say whatever you want. I am fine with it.

I am going to counter your points for the others who are reading this post.

Pebbles hitting the speedskeg thus the crack.
Objectively, can a top of a range frame crack when a pebbles, stone hit it? When it does, are you sure you are confident this frame will hold when you accidentally ride over a pot hole? The crack is exactly vertical, if the frame is naked and you rested the frame on the ground. The speedskeg will be rested on the ground. That is where the crack is.

For pavement, see the photos below

http://img521.imageshack.us/i/dscn3286x.jpg/

http://img51.imageshack.us/i/dscn3288x.jpg/

http://img810.imageshack.us/i/dscn3289.jpg/

http://img529.imageshack.us/i/dscn3291y.jpg/

http://img716.imageshack.us/i/dscn3294.jpg/

http://img220.imageshack.us/i/trisports2136303197312.gif/

For obstacle of height, who in the right frame of mind will take his brand new top of the range frame and drop it on a obstacle of height? Well, maybe I am sick, I did buy a top of the range frame, dropped it over a obstacle of height. Go through the trouble of communicating with KH Cycle, SCOTT, and spent $ to bring them to SCT. Took leave to attend mediation, hearing and spend hours preparing my case to present them before the Referee.

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Posted on: 8th Jan 2011 2:27 AM    Quote and Reply


Quote:
"Formerly posted by tazzy_72: I am back to steel now for a reason."


x 2

a smart experienced cyclist. 

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Posted on: 8th Jan 2011 1:06 PM    Quote and Reply


Quote:
"

EVERYONE i know who owns a Scott has had issues with frame breakages. I would NEVER buy one as a result.  "


This is an unfair feedback against the brand itself & to the other riders owning a Scott. There are many unreported incidents of frames breakages from other brands. A few rouge cases and the tendency is to condemn the brand. I myself as an owner of Scott for 6years, and the brand has hold true to its performance & durability claims as indicated on its website. 


Cycling Principles: Weak - Learn, Strong - Teach, Above all = Be Humble
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Posted on: 12th Feb 2011 6:44 PM    Quote and Reply


Thank you bro Cooperoh for sharing his experience with all of us. I have been looking around for a carbon frame from reputable manufacturer and one stands stands out...ORBEA...check out their lifetime warranty on their bikes. Its a whole page of it and not just a few lines in freaking small fonts. 

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Riding:
Posted on: 8th Mar 2011 3:23 PM    Quote and Reply


thanks for cooperoh for giving a warning.... many times we read stuffs asking ppl to beware, but almost most of the times, they never name the bikeshop and brand... which totally defeat the purpose...

btw, did cooperoh get back your $$$ since the refree ask the bikeshop to refund...

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Posted on: 8th Mar 2011 4:52 PM    Quote and Reply


That kind of damage should be there before installing the bottom bracket... it is very likely to be caused by mishandling of frame in carton box during shipping.

In future if you get LBS to assemble your next bike, may i suggest you inspect it carefully with a flashlight before you leave the shop?

(haha... i'm a old newbie, i forgot the password to my old togoparts id, and i forgot which email address i registered my old id with.)

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Posted on: 19th Mar 2011 9:58 AM    Quote and Reply


Quote:
"Formerly posted by auron: thanks for cooperoh for giving a warning.... many times we read stuffs asking ppl to beware, but almost most of the times, they never name the bikeshop and brand... which totally defeat the purpose...

btw, did cooperoh get back your $$$ since the refree ask the bikeshop to refund...
"


Under oath they claimed they did not damage or see the damage, the referee cannot fault them against their statement under oath. Although the referee did in his closing statement mentioned the damage cannot happened in my care and surprised the shop manager and mechanic did not noticed the crack. There is not enough evidence to indicate KH CYCLE LIED UNDER OATH.

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Posted on: 19th Mar 2011 10:13 AM    Quote and Reply


Quote:
"Formerly posted by sys_error: That kind of damage should be there before installing the bottom bracket... it is very likely to be caused by mishandling of frame in carton box during shipping.

In future if you get LBS to assemble your next bike, may i suggest you inspect it carefully with a flashlight before you leave the shop?

(haha... i'm a old newbie, i forgot the password to my old togoparts id, and i forgot which email address i registered my old id with.)"


Seriously have you ever see anyone doing that while purchasing a high end frame in a reputable bike shop?
Most of the time, TRUST and SERVICE is very critical in any transaction.
I did try to search this forum on bad service or feedback from togoparts on KH Cycle before I went to purchase the frame. That is why now i have made it my mission to let the whole world know what kind of bike shop KH Cycle is.
During the whole sage, I can point out how many faults they have made as a service provider through my email communication with them.
From the every first time, I complained to them, the figner is already pointing at me. Even when the court made that statement, they are still unrepeated.

Can trust this type of bike shop? From my conclusion, as long as it is manufracturer's fault, the finger is pointed at SCOTT. If it is not manufracturer's fault, the finger is pointed at the consumer. Can KH Cycle do no wrong?  

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